June 4, 2022

• Featured

The Resolution of the BSV Experiment

Brittany Bitz

Watch the video on YouTube by clicking the thumbnail below.

Duration: 1 Hour, 20 minutes
Host: Brittany Bitz
Guests: Dean Little & Jack Liu

Full transcript:

Brittany: Hello and welcome back to the channel. Today we have Dean Little and Jack Liu joining us to talk more about Novo and educate us on what Novo is, and I guess why Novo? But before we get started guys, welcome back to the show. I'm so excited to have you here today. How are y'all doing?

Dean: I'm doing well. Thank you. It's great to be here.

Brittany: So, I guess I guess we'll get started with you know What is Novo and how did it come to be? Does anybody want to hop in here first?

Dean: Perhaps I'll give a bit of like my answer and then maybe Jack could you know add on his answer.

Brittany: Sounds good.

Dean: So essentially for like the past year, two years or something, development on on BSV is basically stagnated. When I say development, I mean like the node development. So coming up until Genesis, there was recent, you know, there was like those fairly reasonable upgrades and functionality being added and stuff and then everything just sort of like stagnated and at the same time after the release of Genesis, we started to have things like a OP_Push TX and stuff like that coming to fruition and, essentially what people realized was that there is this problem called the back to Genesis problem and a lot of developers, primarily out of China, had come up with some solutions to this problem that involves changing the SIG hash function, which is something that had actually already been done in BCH. The SIG hash function was modified to add fork ID. This proposal was rejected and eventually it came to a point where basically like BSV is unable to have essentially purely miner-validated tokens that preserve a chain of spends from a valid Genesis without you having to walk back to each previous spend and audit it individually. So, basically due to the frustration and inaction of the devs and you know, basically not having a solution on BSV, some anonymous person went and essentially made a means of solving this problem. Now there are actually two versions of this. One I believe is called Turing chain, and the other is called Novo, and then there's also another one I believe called Metaverse coin or something?

Jack: Yeah, MPC or something. I don't know ticker.

Dean: Yeah, MVC I think. Yeah, so basically there's like multiple projects trying to sort of get off the ground where it's essentially like you've got the original Bitcoin, a lot of this terrible stuff that is like still in in BSV today has been removed. You know, there's a lot of baggage from the history of the chain and stuff like that and there's also stuff that they've added to it like a state iterator and things like that to keep track of tokens as well as a new TX format called Rich TXID which is based on another patented invention called New TXID that a professor from a university in China had actually patented and so there's all of this like crazy stuff going on in China and it's like this the small community of like, you know, you could kind of guess roughly who.. But no one knows (as far as I know) who the actual creator of Novo is and it's one of you know, three chains that emerged out of essentially the Chinese dev community saying "We can't build on BSV. It doesn't solve our problems", and then going and making what they see to be viable alternatives.

Brittany: So one of the things that I keep hearing from a lot of different people is "the problem that these people are having isn't really a big problem and that it's it's not something that we necessarily need to solve", the back to Genesis problem, and and things like that. What would you say to those people?

Dean: I would say that they want tokens that don't feel like a second-class citizen to a Satoshi and that's what every other modern blockchain is able to provide them and BSV is not really able to solve this problem in a way that doesn't hold this indexing burden. It's like basically because of the UTXO model it functions very differently to, say Ethereum. Ethereum has got a smart contract you execute a function towards this smart contract, if the smart contract address is correct, you can see that coming into your wallet. It's like "Oh it's from this contract. I called this contract, it's the right contract", whereas with the UTXO model TXIDs are constantly updating.

Dean: You don't know if the UTXO that you're spending or being sent came from a valid chain of spends and would be honored by other people who would be issuing or trading or accepting those tokens and so these people, they feel like they want tokens that don't feel like second-class citizens. They want something that has the same sort of ability as other chains. But within the UTXO model in a scalable sort of Bitcoin-ish kind of way.

Brittany: Makes sense.

Brittany: So Jack, it seems like you know, correct me if I'm wrong, seems kind of like you're involved and in helping facilitate the growth of Novo. Could you elaborate a bit on on I guess your voice in this, I suppose.

Jack: I don't know if I would characterize it that way. I would just say that, you look you can look at it from a completely non-technical way and you speak of the people that are critical of whatever this problem is and not being a problem. Those are the same people that are professional Twitter writers.

Jack: They've literally never built something like, it's like paid staff at the Bitcoin Association or someone who got funding and is working on token protocol that's got no adoption. If you look at the people that have somewhat build or intended to build things around Novo, whether it's Twetch or Volt (TokenSwap guys) or Relay, these are companies that actually do have customers that work with tokens every day.

Dean: They actually exist? (jokingly)

Jack: They actually exist, and these are people that actually did use BSV for their token solutions up to now. So if you look at the people who are critical of this these moves, it's people that don't have any business to lose, so they can keep on – their main business is not making money from building a token solution or token NFT marketplace or token wallet, and if you look at the initial support so far by these BSV companies.. It's weird to for us to be branded as seen as sort of Novo companies when we are all providing solutions that are using a BSV token to represent the Novo token for now. I know Volt has taken a step further and made a native Novo wallet but we're kind of sort of providing liquidity for Novo in Relay's case, as sort of a "See how the BSV community reacts", and I'm not saying that it should react necessarily by adding 'Back to Genesis', I don't have a horse in that race but you know, I think a lot of people are in BSV because we wanted to believe in sort of a singular chain world but the evidence has shown over the last three four years as BSV peaked at number 5 on market cap and is now at number 60, that whether it's Novo or something else, lots of chains can and have proven empirically to be able to surpass BSV in usage, adoption and whatnot. So I don't see how Novo is any different than any of the other chains that have surpassed BSV.

Brittany: I guess my next question for both of you would be, what are what are some things specifically that this is going to help facilitate other than just like tokens? Are we talking like DeFi, more like Ethereum type-esque solutions, or, what's going on with that specifically?

Dean: Well, I mean, I obviously can't speak for the long term, as far as I know there is no long-term roadmap, you know, I'm sure there will be one released. But essentially it's quite similar to BSV but with a few problems taken care of and I know at least as a developer, that if I go and spend my time to fix the node software that my changes will get merged, they won't get deleted and then I get told "Oh, we were already working on this", and then they push some bullshit like half-assed version of the code that I fixed that doesn't fix the problem a year later, and then pretend I don't exist.

Dean: So, from my perspective as a developer, if I'm going to go and contribute to making an ecosystem better, I'll go somewhere where I'm treated well and where I see opportunity. I don't know if this thing is gonna take off, or if it's gonna flop or whatever. What I do see is right now, there is an opportunity for developers and that is, developing GPU miners, that's the first market that we saw and within the week of two of the source code dropping and people figuring out the Tagged-SHA256 algorithm, I made a GPU miner and now there's like four or five other GPU miners and the fees are going down and markets are forming and, it's like something's happening and that's exciting to be there at the very start of, whatever this thing turns out to be. So I guess we don't really know what problems that will solve because we don't really have like a concrete Roadmap, but what we can see is that the developers have at least identified a problem that is not being solved. They've solved that problem, and they've got basically everyone in the ecosystem that has ever built something useful that actually has users going "this is kind of interesting", we have something that might be able to compete. At the absolute minimum, even if you completely hate this thing, even if you think it's like a shit-coin or whatever, more competition is always good. Because it's a free market, other people forces the other people to improve or die, stagnate. Fine that's that's your choices. So yeah, I see it as a positive thing. Even though like a lot of people would see it as a negative thing. I think they're being too narrow-minded and I think we should, see what happens.

Brittany: Definitely. So Jack I've got to ask, what what plans does RelayX have for for Novo here in the future? Are you building out a bridge and what type of applications and or functions might we see that integrate Novo if if any at all.

Jack: Well, so like honestly, if I could change my DNA a little bit I would be more aggressive in terms of being front and center of adding support for not just Novo, but other blockchain, but I think I have deep loyalty to this idea of Bitcoin from a January 2009 block. So that's probably hindered our growth as a company. In saying that, I think we will conservatively look at what other companies are doing on Novo and try to be second or third to adopt Novo, not first. But for a business perspective, we should be first. And so it looks like the Volt team is doing it, but I think that a general learning lesson here is, for the people who started Novo, whoever they are, they set a precedent, right? So when they started it there was no communication with Twetch whether they're gonna build something for Novo. There was no communication with Relay to see if we were gonna build something for Relay.

Jack: So you were kind of putting in this work without any guarantee that there will be a market for what you're doing. What this does is that, not only have we established there is a market for Novo and there's a bit of a developer ecosystem, now someone who maybe has better ideas than Novo, is now able to be convinced that hey, if they come up with their own chain, maybe Twetch will support that too, and maybe Relay will support that too. So I think not only has there been like some kind of financial gains for some developers to work on some adjacent chain, there's now a certainty that there'll continue to be financial gain. So I think that if BSV continues to stagnate, just like kind of how BCH is, what is it now like, 5% of BTC market cap? 2%, something like that, and BSV is like 20% of BCH market cap.

Jack: I think a better compare is Amaury's project 'ABC' that's about 20% of BCH. So, I could see the market cap of the combined Novo plus other BSV derivative projects being worth about 10-20% of BSV, which today is like, if BSV is worth a billion then you have 200 million dollars to be captured from other chains. Until BSV can separate itself, if it manages to do that.

Brittany: Well, I definitely agree with what you're saying, and it is a free market. It's capitalism, let the market decide what they want, and where they want to go, what direction they want to take, that's fine. I think competition does spur some things, without getting too much into it.

Brittany: But could you touch on the Novo Bridge Pass? I Believe it says "Owners of this NFT will get early access to the feature, and be able to bridge Novo (Run) to Novo on Novo chain one-to-one with no bridge fees". So I'm curious about that in particular, Jack.

Jack: Yeah, so we have a RUN version, RUN is a token protocol on BSV. A RUN-representative token of Novo one-to-one, but obviously people who are mining the Novo chain are mining the main Novo chain, which does not work in our AMM (Automated Market Maker).

Jack: So the bridge pass allows you to basically post into bridge.relayx.com any amount of Novos you have, and you'll be minted the equivalent amount of the RUN version of the Novo token, and you can trade that on the AMM. No fees meaning that you put in a million units of Novo and you get a million units of RUN Novo. That's what you get right now. Only the NFT pass holders can do this bridge. Later, if Novo develops as an ecosystem we can imagine something like Non-NFT users can use the bridge too, they might pay like a 20 basis point fee. So if they put in a million Novos they get 998,000 Novos on RUN.

Jack: And then so if comes to a power user and this has become very valuable to you, and you don't want to pay that 20 basis points fee, it might behoove you to buy the NFT for higher than the NFT was trading at before. There's only a certain number of free passes. And we did that not because this really matters (because I think we made maybe like $900 from the Pass or $500 maybe even less like $300 from the Pass), but it's more like showing app developers that one day in the future you can think of NFTs as almost like subscription passes or unlocks to access certain functions of apps. And that's a way to monetize features, while maintaining a secondary market. I know that you could do like sort of feature funding on Twetch. Let's say originally you were able to fund Dark Mode or something. But maybe it's not a perfect example, but imagine only 500 people in the world can have Dark Mode, then as the app actually grew, you as the original feature funder is able to flip the access to Dark Mode to somebody else at an even higher price than you pay to fund the feature. So that's kind of what we're trying to prove out.

And from a technical level Dean, do you think you could perhaps explain how that works?

So if I wanted to What I send the Relay X the exchange MyNovo they lock it up and then they give me This this I guess Equivalent amount or or how does that work?

Yeah, I mean, it's just like it's kind of like a derivative token, right?

So it's kind of like I send you a thousand of the thing and then you get a thousand this other thing and because there's Already a run based AMM They're able to just put into their AMM and then all of a sudden, you know, you've got an instant market Or be it with a wrapped Token, but okay, you know, isn't that better than not having a market?

Oh, yeah No, totally totally and the other thing that's cool is if you actually look at it Like twitch had a feature for adding Novo to the wallet Mmm, really had the the bridge pass right and if you look at vault the the actual Novo developer I believe funded their their AMM as well with some with some actual Novo Bitcoin, so What what what that shows you is like if you?

Put something out there and the market responds to it.

Then like the market sending you a message like Yeah, this is interesting.

Like no one's out here shilling or promoting this thing and yet all of a sudden there's just like people going I would like you to add this to your apps, you know So I think that's a very interesting phenomenon and a very interesting sort of message that the market is sending So right now so far you guys mentioned that they're working on creating their own wallet or I already have and then Relay access helping to bridge this and to a certain extent and then Vault is is working on this as well.

Who else in the ecosystem is is wanting to pour over their exchange app idea over to Novo and and and I Mean, it hasn't done it yet.

No This is the ecosystem.

I'm almost think almost think the reaction to Novo is a check on which apps are still around Elaborate a little bit more on that for me.


He's saying who else is there like who else is actually?

well, I Guess you've got a point if you think about it, right like These are the three companies or four companies We don't talk to each other to be honest.

There's no group chat between these three times I don't know the last time I talked to both people.

We were kind of rivals as well, but like like just take a Like a hand cash, for example, they haven't really committed yet to NFTs or tokens.

So They don't have the infrastructure to support Novo right now.

I think that quickly So of the ones that could add Novo quickly, I think you have almost a 100% participation rate Well, I guess in my you know from from my standpoint because I know I'm asking a bunch of newbie questions here So I apologize and thank you guys But you know from my perspective Completely non-biased but I'm gonna say it.

Anyway, it just seems like why why do we need to do this, you know when It's like Having to stop growth of what we what was currently being developed I guess like in RelayX's Case right you guys were probably working on things prior to this or Volt was probably working on things prior to this and now it Seems like you guys have to kind of stop pivot and and change directions a little bit to add in more things So I feel like it's perhaps stunting the growth in the BSV space Even though some might argue that like like you were saying it's it hasn't been really going anywhere anyway Recently so to speak No, no, no, that's not why we are adding it I'll say Dean you want to take it first.

I'll come back to this.

Yeah Yeah It's not like oh We're gonna go and do this thing or whatever.

It's more like oh look a market formed There are people who want to pay for a service and we're a business and we want to make money Okay, simple simplistic.

So like it's not and it's not like we want to make money by Doing something shady or scammy or whatever.

It's literally just like people literally want to pay for us to add a Different coin to our apps and so it's like well if they're gonna pay us to add a coin to our apps No, it's like not that much work like great, you know and I guess the other thing that you could look at right is It's fairly easy to adapt over from for BSV apps to adapt over to Novo's pretty pretty easy, right?

So like you've already got most of the infrastructure there the blocks aren't like gigabytes of fake Transactions so you don't have to sit there processing all that crap, you know It's like X it's like actually like there's a couple of casual transactions here and there so it's not much Extra burden so it's not like we had to go and stop everything and like put in all this extra work And and the other thing too is like you can also make the same argument about BCH, right?

It's like BCH support.

It's actually pretty much compatible with BSV up aside from script, right?

but and like even like we're all quite like friendly with with Roger Ver even you know, and but yet like That hasn't even been really interesting to us because it doesn't actually have like more functionality It doesn't have lower fees The only thing it really has is like it's held its value better, but just sending someone a couple of payments is like not truly unlocking all of the capabilities of Bitcoin whereas this thing is like Let's give Bitcoin more superpowers You know, I mean So I feel like there's just you know, there's just greater incentive Putting it in those terms It's like okay Why wouldn't a business do this in that sense because if they didn't then they'd be missing out on money and I guess that's the part That I wasn't looking at because I know it's really not just missing out on money.

It's not like hey Why didn't Jack also open a lemonade stand today?

He's also missing out money there, right?

But this has whatever percentage of business risk this has some existential crisis risk to BSV because I Understand I don't like the fact that it's pre-mine.

I don't like the fact that it starts from Genesis.

I don't like that but If you see developers rushing into it because there are actually some functionalities that BSV does not have Then there is a tail risk that certain things get built on there super fast So at least you have to get your developers to look at it and like hey study it so that We don't get caught napping like why do people think that if BSV takes over then BTC is screwed is because the assumption that BTC won't scale in time and Some iceberg order and then BSC flips the overnight and hash rate stops on mining, right?

It's the same idea if why a BFP you would want a BTC person to code on BSV.

You would want a BSC person to Understand though, even if what one day it just means that like BSV adds back to Genesis also Whatever apps are going to be built on BSV Then I've got to look very similar to apps that people are trying to build on Novo So it's just a good place to learn And study so I think anyone would be prudent to look at it I mean the way I would if I may the way the way I would look at it It's like I've never cared about BSV ever I would never describe myself as a BSV or someone who cares or likes it cares about or likes BSV.

I like Bitcoin right and I like blockchains that scale if I could have Bitcoin that scales I would be a happy man right and That's because I I like the original Bitcoin.

It is there something enchanting.

There's something, you know Interesting.

I don't know what to say special about it.

It's like an immaculate conception sort of thing, right?

It doesn't happen very often something like such something like this much of a breakthrough The way I see it is like any any one of these chains that you you do build on right is Sort of even if that that that chain doesn't doesn't work out or the coin goes to share or whatever, right?

You've accumulated the experience like building on that system.

You can build whatever you want You know with the one that does scale or work so, you know, I just treat it as like a learning experience and a lesson and you know, if you can if you can put up with Huge amounts of data and stuff like that and all these complicated scripts I mean, you're gonna build a very talented team of people who can solve a lot of crazy problems So it's like expanding your horizons not not just from a technical aspect front but also from a business standpoint is it's better to just always be able to check out the competition and and and move from that point on but What what are the transaction fees on Novo look like?

You were talking about mining Dean and everything.

So like what would you consider like the the transaction fees the differences?

Between BSV and Novo right now.

So first of all a little bit Different because it has a different number of decimal places.

I think it's four decimal places so Like a SAT is not a SAT because like a SAT on BTC BSV BCH is What is it one 100 millionth?

Right, right on this one.

I think it's like one one ten thousandth or something So see so if you like try to equate SATs, it's like that that doesn't quite work And then the other thing too is like most people at the moment are moving their stuff around using the built-in Bitcoin node wallet because like people haven't actually made Decent enough sort of like wallet support So there isn't really like like like that that that built-in wallet.

It just pays extremely high fees It doesn't like try to optimize for a fee rate or whatever because it's from the BTC, right?

It's like it shouldn't even be in the software.

I don't know why like n-chain keeps it around.

It's a terrible idea, but So like most people using that and so they're paying really high fees for you know, no reason And then you know, there's also not really like a fee market yet Like most of the transactions are mining pools paying out mining shares to people for example And you know, there hasn't really been enough released in terms of like technical documentation or things like that So yeah, I was gonna ask about the source code Yeah, so like, you know, we've got it backed up and stuff, but they pulled the source code down and they're you know, fixing some Licensing issues which you know, you can't take MIT code and then rebrand it anyway so that's like a stupid concern in my opinion, but You don't think they should be worried about the legal threats that I guess have been tossed around I'm sure that there will eventually be some kind of legal threat.

I just don't believe it to be an actually like legitimate Claim that like you like if someone releases MIT code Right, you can't just go and fork it and then like license and say okay You can't use this code like, you know You have to actually go and write your own code from scratch and not use the MIT code if you want to Enforce this kind of like restrictive licensing around it.

So I don't believe it's a legitimate But I don't believe the license is legitimate claim And you know if you want to go and like talk shit about this, you know, BSV open license Like it only works in the original Bitcoin.

It's like well, you know, there's a there's some github issues open right now It's like are you gonna add back the original C cache?

No, you can add back the original DAA No Yeah Are you going to like like there's all these all these all these questions by a guy called I think like Bitcoin contrarian I think his name is it on github right where it's basically like, you know, if it's the original protocol Why are you gonna add an op court sig blah blah blah like, you know, so You could argue the BSV node itself is in violation of the entire fucking license dude, like It's not following the original protocol at all Did you have something you wanted to add Jack?

No, I just think this this whole Sega Reflects sort of two groups of people within Bitcoin one group which is Actually doesn't want competition.

So wants to shut down by Nance put by Nance in jail shut down all the other blockchains sue everyone else in crypto and sued Novo and everything else and they think that You win by just restoring the original Bitcoin protocol and then also probably restoring some of the original use cases of Bitcoin I don't know send money to your friends for cheap and like pay for a burger with Bitcoin This is like where the mind is locked in and then so these developers and these ecosystem people They probably don't check out Novo.

They just dismiss it as like that's not a copycat infringements of license They dismiss Alana that this dismiss every single use case And what happens is three years after those blockchains or those use cases start developing?

Then they're like, oh and that these are thing people like NFTs like maybe I'll look into NFTs So it's like always behind whereas I think the other group of people in BSV We are here potentially because there are Efficiencies in scaling efficiencies to doing all what crypto wants to do and more On the one chain So like if you look at any time you're a developer on Ethereum you have to think about two things you have to think about cool use cases go to conferences and think about new apps and Whatever great that's one part.

But the other part I think about is how do I scale a theorem as well?

So there's other ecosystem of like L1 L2 all this other ZK roll up whatever stuff the fancy attraction at least to me originally about Bitcoin and doing this stuff on BSV was that maybe you can just only worry about Fancy cool use cases and dream up new NFT marketplaces and you whatever else and you don't have to worry about the scaling part But again the former faction I talked about they seem to not want any of this may begrudgingly accept this It's almost like to them if you could just shut down all the other blockchains and I put every single developer into jail Then somehow BSV would would win but that's just not how it works If that happened if everyone just went to jail BSV, we just still be at 40 bucks or 50 bucks.

It's just nothing less I Mean like like put it this way like look at like Justin Sun for example, right?

If anyone has ever broken literally every single securities law in the world, right and this is my opinion.

This is not liable Okay, whatever like I don't think he cares dude is literally now like Some like foreign representative for a country like, you know you and you make that kind of money You could just like buy diplomatic immunity, right?

I'm not saying that's what happened But I'm just saying that that's a reality with like these people that they think are going to prison it's like no, it's not gonna happen like it's It's ridiculous.

It demonstrates like a lack of understanding of Bitcoin and lack of confidence in Bitcoin to win on merit competition So anytime you're signaling that your strategy is to get patents and to put people in jail It means like you just don't believe in this technology yourself and imagine just like what kind of hiring process they go through at like You imagine you're a new employee at nchain or a new employee at Bitcoin Association What do you think is your induction process?

Do you think it's one of those like hey, welcome to the team?

Let's compete we got to take down BCH this year.

I'm gonna grow this blockchain.

That's the message.

What do you the message?

Welcome, we're the only legal blockchain welcome Like we're gonna win like by default this elitism like everything else is scam.

Everyone's a scammer Like you can see why those associations and organizations go so slow Because the people that they bring in No fault to their own.

It's the culture being set at the top level is just I'm the biggest genius ever and only my invention whatever I say works and everything else is stupid.

So You know, this is this is just like showing you that the the independent Community development community in BSV are the ones that are actually building most of the utility on BSV So basically what you're kind of getting at is there the culture and BSV is limiting its own growth and in order to spur more growth we have to change the way that we think at a fundamental level at the highest point and Novo in your opinion is is is kind of facilitating a new type of spark that says hey We have this thing that we always all we all agree that we like except there's there's There's more I guess opportunity over here because we're not limited by the the culture It's a new culture and we're developing our own new culture with with Novo Is that is that more or less kind of what I'm getting at right now or what you guys are getting at?

One thing I would say is like you said like the culture in BSV is wrong and I'm like, you know I would agree right because I don't consider myself a BSV or I'm a bit coiner, right?

Right, and I feel like there is this thing called a BSV culture and then there's like the Bitcoin culture, right?

and they are two very different things BSV is basically a failed marketing campaign and Bitcoin is like this idea of we can have this efficient permissionless global accessible financial sure where everyone can compete and belong and you know trade and you know like We could probably solve world peace eventually someday, you know, because you know, it's everyone's like Oh if I just like, you know trade with people peacefully and do a good job.

I make more Bitcoin Like, you know, that's sort of that's sort of the vision I think that's the like the Bitcoin vision.

Whereas like the BSV vision is like Everything else is illegal.

Everything everyone else does is either bad or it doesn't exist We just close our eyes and pretend that they're not running laps around us in terms of every metric that matters whether it be transaction count price adoption users They've like Solana's literally buying like like political Favor in the US like right now, you know like like You know, it's it's um, it's ridiculous, right?

Whereas Bitcoin is this sort of like hyper-capitalist, you know, there's interlocking incentives and I don't know like Jack could probably even like speak to that that mindset better than I could he's been around longer than me, you know, so when you said BSV I totally agree with what you said there when it comes to like the Novo thing.

I think it's more like People have organically congregated around this new thing and it's exciting and let's see what happens and you know Like it's a fun experiment.

Maybe it goes somewhere In any case it's interesting that all the people who actually build stuff on this other chain are like hey, this is interesting Yeah, and I think people are trying to frame I don't know I don't know that you're doing this intentionally but there's that be people on Twitter social media trying to frame the people who build on noble as like failed developers on BSV and trying to go Successful right trying to go to noble and then eventually if noble doesn't succeed They'll be like see these guys failed on noble to they're trying to anchor us to whether noble succeeds or not And I don't think that's the probabilistic bet that you should be thinking if you're looking at you can mine noble for like half A dollar or a dollar or whatever it is.

Like it's a it's a market weighted like sort of decision to try noble It's not a we believe noble is better than BSV.

There's some sensationalist headline.

You're trying to pin towards So I think the the black pill that you want to think about is that if Calvin air today Stop funding BSV entirely a BSC be much more successful.

I Totally agree with that like the people want to position like well, you're not the one putting in all this money to ecosystem You're not the one with like all the people organizing all this work.

It's like no, they don't see second third order effects number one currently the top applications in BSV have nothing to do with common air In terms of users or funding right look at the top ones that people think about where candy to watch relay Sense of sensible protocol any of that stuff.

You know frustrated here game No, we're not frustrated.

So I just say we're not frustrated with not receiving Funding from Calvin per se but I would say frustrated.

No, I said not Right, right I'm said not from not receiving funding from Calvin but frustrated in the sense that the space isn't going anywhere and It's like Like I told you if if Someone below us in an application if like relic is not frustrated if whatever else is not frustrated Why would we be frustrated?

We're more successful with the most successful apps in BSV.

We're not frustrated What we're saying what we're just doing as a thought experiment to let you know is that it's not like you know This funding that he's doing is maybe could be doing done better or maybe it could be like, you know So there's no level of frustration about what the space kind of stagnating right now or that there's not more growth in the space No, no, we're just saying that if the if he withdrew entirely like I'm talking about withdrew entirely from towel withdrew entirely from the coins associations withdrew entirely from n-chain BSE price will be higher.

The applications will be better because here's what would happen, right?

There's immense talent in those companies that he's funded right, right, but They're not forced to produce profits Okay, so if he pulled the funding sure you could imagine that had cash would go bankrupt, but I believe it out So like maybe Alex and his team can build something You know more along the lines of a rare candy or so you're saying it would be like a sink or swim Type of situation when you're forced to use your own money You're gonna ensure that you're able to produce profits because you got to stay afloat Sure, or you're free to go after different sources of capital, right?

Like and maybe there's other that also there's three trillion dollars on to a few years ago Now it's like 1.5 trillion dollars of crypto market cap People who understand Bitcoin you think that people who like build on Solana don't originally understand Bitcoin You think people build up to the theorem doesn't or originally understand Bitcoin.

There are people from that ecosystem Who might enter?

What's $100 to them chump change, right?

Like so you're not seeing the second third order effects of what would happen I'm not saying push the guy out.

I'm just saying it hypothetically voluntarily if he were to say leave It would not mean the collapse of BSE So I'm just saying as a BSE person or as whoever you are in the community holding coins or support of the ecosystem Don't limit yourself to thinking that you need relay or you need twat or you need Calvin air It doesn't matter what the amount of money is funding is bitcoins Bitcoins power is that you can build things without funding.

That's the best part of it Yeah, I mean look and it's a simple to write like if if none of those companies existed tomorrow, right?

Who would be who would be this who would still be the CEO of BSE?

Right, it's like everybody knows what's really going on everybody knows Hey, right like it.

It's basically there's a You know, there's a user numbers, right?

They don't use paymail.

So who needs paymail that doesn't matter and then like all of us none of us use any token standard made by anything from the like Bitcoin Association or Technical steering committee that doesn't exist or the big like token protocol that they funded None of us use any of that So like all the stuff that you like about BSV has nothing to do with any of those investments zero Not only does it doesn't nothing do with them investing in us.

It's just it doesn't have anything to do with anything They invested in period Yeah, and I've never seen any one of these companies ever like turn a profit and it's because they've never had to And I you look at you should be like that convention in Dubai should literally be rebranded to like the other BSV blockable blockchain conference because it's not attended by twatches not attended by rare candies not tended by relay It's not attended by sensible or volt.

It's not attended by any of the top apps in the ecosystem So I don't know what that convention is for Yeah, it's pretty obviously to try and like, you know Scam some oil money and so it looks like to me.

I don't know It's like hey guys, it's like it's like data's the new oil like and I heard this is like climate change and stuff You know, what do you think about this green blockchain?

And it actually that convention might have 500 people or something 200 people, right?

I can promise you this The total number of bitcoins held by the people who attend that convention is Lower than the total number of bitcoins held by 30 people that went to Bali.

Oh That's 100% so who has more skin in the game to make Bitcoin SB successful like We could organize another Cambrian three or whatever Pick literally drop a pin anywhere in the world and it would be whoever does attend is gonna hold more Bitcoin They can have more to lose from Bitcoin not succeeding then this entire mega Complex you okay, obviously X Calvin X like I don't know what coming Craig holds But I'm saying I'm saying the attendees, right?

So I Mean but even even with everything that you guys are saying whether or not, you know, anybody Agrees with that.

I mean find myself agreeing with that, you know to a certain extent but There there still seems to be a level of frustration with the way things are done I mean, I know that we had the what was it?

I think it was the Bitcoin Association or somebody came out with like the new logo for BSB and everything and it's just like Part of me wants to sit here and say hey guys You guys are trying to run this as like a as a corporation and it's not a corporation it should just be open and you know, everybody comes in and does their own thing and we all benefit from I guess everybody's creativity, but instead it's like stifled by by corporate growth six You know, I don't want to get like too off topic or anything it go to too deep into it but I mean, I I agree that there's a there's a there's a little frustration even on my end here that it's like, okay Black and white corporation suits is not going to help Grow this ecosystem and so in that sense in and of itself, I'm like, okay well, maybe Novo is this cool thing that that inspires that that growth and This really is not about Novo.

Nothing behind it says Novo.

Novo just came across the roadmap Came across our screens a little bit And it wasn't a case of Dean are you gonna code on the road if so, I will there's no competition Yeah, actually, none of us actually talked.

We all just went like ah This is like the first serious like time someone is seriously like tried to do something.

Oh three months pre mine.

That's kind of lame Hmm and then you know community formed around it a bunch of people like this is dope and then it's like well Oh, okay, like there's demand So what am I gonna do as a business?

Am I gonna say this is evil or bad?

You know, am I gonna say competition is bad?

Am I gonna say that my my customers are wrong or am I gonna go?

Okay, people want this I'll give them what they want and I you know, I encourage competition and I hope that it makes both sides Better and you know, maybe one will win and maybe they'll coexist and you know, no, no, maybe they'll both win.

Who knows Yeah, so everything can exist Like cohesively, it's it's just something else that's entering the space and people are taking a liking to it.

I suppose them You know, I've got a buddy who's who's currently mining on his his computer.

He's mining Novo and Portable to the Bitcoin Association Yeah, well what do you know, you know like from a technical level where where's the block size at on Novo and and You know like the the difficulty when when is it ever gonna go from?

Oh, you can't mine on your computer anymore.

Like like what happened with BTC or is it gonna?

Yeah, so you you have to mine on GPUs now.

You can't mine on CPUs anymore.

That's like totally like I Ruined that and then some other people came along and made it worse.

So Yeah, it was a nice three or four days being the only GPU miner and then Bang, you know all these people came and competed but that's that's super healthy to see a market with competition and you know developers Making software making money.

That's really great With the block size thing.

So it's another thing.

It's kind of like you're talking about the transaction fees It's like you can't exactly compare it because okay right now it is a 8 megabyte block, right?

but they will they will like lift the block size in the future, but the thing you have to consider is it's a 150 Second block time right as opposed to a 600 second block time or a 10 minute block time right, so We're actually, you know talking about Eight times four right?

So the capability is actually more like 32 meg.

So it's actually on par with BCH BCH.

Yeah That's interesting Well, um guys, I mean, is there anything else that we should I guess make note of about Novo or about something anything going on?

In the space.

I mean Dean I know you've been talking a lot about Solana recently and I Solana weirds me out with their no UTXO model and I know this is totally off topic But you know, I get that I guess I've been wanting to just ask you in general I I know that they've been working on on fixing The problems as to why the the network keeps going down, but I just in general I'm like, I don't know if they can actually fix the problem.

I think the thing that I like about about Solana, right is The actual general attitude towards these things.

So like when I say I just broke the BSV node, right?

Shane says we filed the ticket and nothing ever happens Right when I talked to even the Bitcoin Association about it when I talked to even Coin geek or even like anyone elsewhere about it.

They're like, oh, yeah, it's shit you know, I talked to even like I talked to even like You know the people putting the largest amount of transactions on chain who you know They're completely wrecked because the node software is not up to scratch right you say anything about it, right and what happens?

It's like you're Calvin nervously tweeting don't listen to Dean.

He's a Twitter troll.

He doesn't know what he's talking about Blah blah blah, right?

It's like no dude, like anyone who actually builds on this shit knows it's wrecked, right?

Solana is like you can call the CEO like Solana has a CEO.

That's pretty funny Bitcoin has a CEO as well, but like they have like an officially appointed not community appointed It's not like it's not like a decentralized CEO.

They've got a centralized CEO So, you know their CEO doesn't have an AMM he's like a real guy You can call he follows me on Twitter.

He like he like he's a you can get him on the phone You can literally call the CEO and go this is wrecked.

This is my problems, right and he'll go Cool.

I'm gonna take this to my team tomorrow.

Can you give me some like some?

You know ways to reproduce this problem blah blah blah, right and then they push a bug fix like overnight They call the validators.

Hey, can you upgrade the software?

We fix this problem for this, you know, this this customer or this this app, right?

like That attitude of oh we hit a scale ceiling.

Let's figure out what happened.

Okay, we fixed it Okay, let's break something else, right?

That's the correct attitude.

That is how you actually get somewhere, right?

All right, if we see here Spamming a bunch of fake transactions that can't even get mine because the node software is broken, right?

and you basically have got you basically have got like if I'm being really honest like One of the one of the talented people from from crypto fights.

In fact the guy I respect the most out of all those companies Sitting there day and night trying to spam these transactions and guerrilla pool Basically trying to pick up the slack because nobody knows what the fuck's going on, right?

That is a that is a terrible attitude if you think you're ready for enterprise, but you can't even handle this Like no, it's the wrong attitude Now that that really needs to change if if you want to change my perception of whether or not this thing will scale Well, I guess that kind of begs the question too.

It's like, okay.

Well, we don't know who the the developers are in novo So, I mean once people start building porting their businesses over and then begin having issues, who are we gonna call?

Hey, it's a very good question and like this is a nine This is an unanswered question at the same time.

I've seen people post, you know problems like hey I've got this problem and the developer is actually gone and address them So but I I don't think I don't think it's sustainable to have one guy work on it, right?

I think you need it you need a community and I think as soon as they've worked out the Licensing and source code and all that stuff like and they they put it back online I Think you're gonna start seeing you know People actually submitting community code and I think you'll see it improving in ways that just simply couldn't like happen on BSC Like to give you an example There's the technical standards committee like made a made a Merkle root like I was an SPV proof standard, right?

The note doesn't even implement it properly.

It like literally crashes when you call certain like types of SPV proofs right just like that doesn't implement the standard that they apparently you're you know, creating or suggesting, right?

Like stuff like that and and like I'm like, oh, here's a fix.

It's like oh, we'll never merge it You know, there's even you can see like there's a git commit from tie ever it deleting some of the most disgusting code You'll ever see it's been there for like a year and a half never got merged it's like it's it's a graveyard of people trying to make it better and them being completely non receptive to it because they want to maintain total control and Run it like a company and that's not what Bitcoin is about Jack did you want to hop in here and say anything real quick?

I actually I actually have a question for you Jack So, um, why is the price of Novo on really at relay X double what people are paying for on the open market?

Do you have any idea?

Is that just something that?

Coincidentally happened, you know Right now it's no longer the case, right?


I haven't looked at it in about a couple of days.

Yeah, I mean like There's market asymmetries, right?

So People might not trust an OTC dealer because they don't know who that person is So like I know some people got wrecked by Novo things that weren't actually Novo Right, there's things like that I'm not well, this is just a buying straight from miners type of Situation and like you have to have a wallet at the time to receive the Novo's to do the trade If you were buying a derivative token Then I guess like you could it was all compatible on relay or I think even token swaps Novo market is at a premium to what miners are doing underneath because The volumes I think right now.

There's 70 BSV each on relay and token swaps pools last I checked More trading volume happening now on token swap.

I expected that But people who are doing much larger deals Off offline or OTC.

That's why there's a discount because they're trying to offload like I don't know hundred million Novos at once or three hundred million dollars at once What I've actually noticed is like with the larger deals.

They seem to still carry a very high price tag.

Like I see like Most of the cheapest ones are people trying to sell like, you know a few hundred thousand or a million or something OTC but yeah, I think like if you're dealing with a known exchange that has some kind of reputation, I think That's definitely to the average person much less sketchy than like trusting some guy in a discord But you know the other thing I would I would say is there's a lot of love twitch people on there and like Twitch is one of the most honest communities I've ever seen, you know, and Even even in really to like yeah, okay This seems like scamming scammy dudes, but like the people who like we actually know who use relay like like there's a guy Who was it?

Is it like that guy like lost his like gopniks egg or whatever?

Yeah okay, so when we updated our wallet and It kind of allowed you to either sell your NFT or send you an empty He kind of was trying to post an order to sell his NFT for like I don't know What is it for BSC whatever it is and it ended up ascending to user number four at relay XIO And he just posted like oh my god.

I oh my gosh like my goblins are gone I was trying to post a listing and now it's gone to some other person paymail and that's a story talking about right?

Lord I think And The user whoever it happened to be that had that paymail just like sent it got me right back to him Oh, that was nice So like there's there's so many cases of honesty like this that I've seen right?

Which is just like I've never seen that in any other crypto community ever Usually people would say hi you're wrecked like so it is kind of it is kind of strange Like why are there so many honest good people?

I I feel like it's because if you look at like both Relay and twedge they kind of force you to have a public profile And so you kind of have some kind of reputation so there's like the symbiotic relationship between buyers and sellers where like people who are Sort of well-known reputable.

It's like okay.

I can probably trust this guy Yeah, you guys definitely welcomed me in with well with open arms the the Bitcoin community in general is is pretty open and and I Think it's a bunch of cool people.

I I do think it's kind of sucky that there's there's um There's there's a bit of a disconnect with with like sentimentality for some against like twetch people So like you were saying Jack, you know, why aren't the top?

Top companies in the space going to the blockchain convention, you know, why aren't they being featured there?

And I think that really It's not that we wish we had we were given keynote spots It's just the tone of that conference is not something that really is Attracted to our user base or what we're trying to build as a business.

Okay They don't want us to be there it's we do not want to be there What what would incentivize you more to actually want to go What what would be the change you want to talk about real topics, right?

Like so if I was to have an event we would talk about how to defeat lizards as a panel How to get rid of seed oil How do you build a better talking NFT marketplace or ecosystem than those in theory of Barcelona.

We will be talking about things that actually are about winning Yeah, like like the only like really constructive thing that I've ever sort of seen was like in Toronto They had a technical day.

I thought that was like pretty good But other than that, it's kind of just like people wait for months so that they have something to announce and Then it's usually like a soon and then it like doesn't happen and like that's sort of all I really See happening Which is like it's pretty like boring the thing the only thing that I really like is like, you know, if my friends are going like I get to see some people I haven't seen in a while, but Yeah, I feel like I feel like it's the wrong approach if you actually want people to like Have a good image of Bitcoin and adopt it and use it and whatever and you know I guess that's just where we differ in our opinions, right?

That's the difference between a BS fear and a bit corner I think Joshua Hensley has a pretty good approach with that You know if you ask Josh what he's doing or what he's working on he might tell you he's working on something, but he won't elaborate on it any more than that and I've asked him why in the past like why why won't you say anything about it?

You know, like wouldn't you create hype or whatever?

He goes no because the moment you start, you know Giving anybody any expectations about what you're doing and then you don't deliver on that from day one They're gonna you're gonna be they're gonna be mad.

They're gonna be upset so if you just don't say anything about it and then you deliver a product to the market for them to you know, see Nobody has any expectations.

Nobody can be mad or sad or whatever They can just look at it and be like, oh, this is cool or this is wrecked.

Whatever it is, you know, I Think I think that's a pretty good Way to way to go about doing things instead of trying to announce things like months in advance and be like, oh, yeah We're doing this we're doing that So, you know, but Anyway, this is gonna win within three months guys But you know Britney Happy belated birthday Thank you.

I appreciate that Jack.

Yes for sure and I wanted to say that, you know, I'm taking the Bitcoin forces you to wear two hats at least in my opinion you you wear the hat of your own product like CEO of your own product or you work at your own company and the other hat you wear is some role in the ecosystem To grow the ecosystem because your company's obviously earning in bitcoins But you also want the bitcoins to go up that you're earning because that also because not just for the financial betting But for just there'll be more users of Bitcoin that might one day use your product.

So you kind of do want Other products to like it have bit pink.

Yes to to grow up.

You want bit pink to grow as well Whereas, you know in the US dollar economy you only wear, you know one hat because You might love America.

You might be very patriotic and be American, but you're not actually on any level Incentivized with other Americans because this this US dollar is not gonna go up right?

It's not a stock.

It's not Limited in supply.

So you just worry about your own share price of whatever company that you're working on And I'd say that in the beginning Let's say when Twister shows up in March of 2019 with the product and they have five users So Relay has 500 users.

The hat that you wear as part of the ecosystem is bigger Because that explains why in 2019 people went to Cambrian Valley all Kumbaya built together and affect some kind of influence around the space Especially if BSV is at like $3-400 and your own user base like a few hundred Then like obviously the ecosystem is bigger than your own hat.

At this price level I'll tell you why some sort of some strategic shifts are changing is that Rare Candy actually has a business that's working Relay has a business that works.

It just it doesn't work as well Doesn't grow as fast because of some of the UI UX bots, but like fundamentally it works Twitch has a community of users that works and we are able to fund our own development and our own growth on its own and Then plus the fact that BSV is now a sub 1 billion dollar market cap coin there is an argument now to be made that Like imagine I don't think even Trinidad and Tobago has a currency That's less than like a billion dollars like in circulating like it's a very very small currency, right?

It's a very very small currency that the total fees generated by this ecosystem in terms of revenue natively Like the fact that Calvin makes money in real estate and throws it into here.

It's not part of the ecosystem, right?

That's just like a good deed by whatever he's doing But the internal revenue source is now no longer able to support more than let's say a hundred two hundred people Employed like the number of people that can be employed in this ecosystem is like very low now It should like for reference.

You're you're you're You were talking about this in in Twitter spaces one day you were talking about how relay X is is one of the top people On the on the on the list here that does like the most amount of transactions per day or something like that I mean you had like crypto fights and obviously there was a couple others up there but like in comparison, it's just like I Lost my train of thought there.

I totally forgot where I was Saying is that like whether it's really what doesn't matter?

It doesn't matter was really or if could find any anyone else I'm just saying in in math.

It's just a simple math right in a one-lap sub 1 billion dollar currency You can barely sustain a few hundred people in your ecosystem So then at this moment you need one of these apps It doesn't have to be relay or twitch or a rare candy to grow Extraordinary fast on its own.

So I think that when the pie is big and You are small you can be more kumbaya.

Hope everyone's grows up high together when you've noticed that for three years You've been encouraging this kind of collaborative mindset and it hasn't worked out and the actual indicator of collaboration has gone down from $400 to $50 You you then need to focus on your own business So for me, I'll be putting on my relay X CEO hat more and I think that's what Dean is doing Dean the CEO himself right and Our money himself and then what happens is hopefully I still have a you know, just American heart in me I hopefully one of our growths is big enough to bring attention back to This blockchain that we're working on whatever and then you'll get more developers So I think that's also why there's less of an emphasis on going to places like Dubai and things like that is at this point Your ecosystem is needing of one breakthrough app more than ever because there's no money left So do we need more developers or do we need more entrepreneurs right now in your opinion?

You're not gonna get either It's over.

You know you either Because no one in their right mind right now is gonna come in here and build on this Because the size of the because it was too small is shrinking liquidity shrinking So you need someone who's already trained in this ecosystem who's already building products to hopefully go viral And go big and then it'll become a bigger opportunity again And somebody else may be interested in learning about Bitcoin and building on Bitcoin That's fair.

I mean, I kind of agree with that.

I mean like put it put it this way like Developers are not a dime a dozen They're in extremely high demand especially due to everything going online now due to like work from home and all that stuff There are extremely competitive salaries out there for good talent so how are you going to attract the best talent if there is no real like opportunity and There's no real like I guess upside compared to the Thousand other competitors out there that could do higher multiples or have more dev support or you know whatever right and You know if you are coming in then you're working for a venture capital Backed company most likely like if you are like in someone coming in How is that venture backed Company going to compete people who have to be profitable to stick around When they don't have to be profitable to stick around right, it's It sounds crazy, but money makes people lazy and you know not do their their best work If it's easy money, right?

It's when you're actually like You know, it comes down to the wire and you have to like sink or swim that's when that's when you see people like really do good work and You know, I think Bitcoin has the ability to really like reward people who Put in that work where it counts But you know like like Jack saying yeah, there's not there's not enough liquidity to go around to And people are too comfortable Well, you know they shouldn't be They shouldn't be feeling comfortable Yeah No, it's more like it's more like you have let's say originally a hundred thousand people on an island.

You can build an economy together Now this island is like literally sinking and you have 80,000 people who have left the island Right and you have 20,000 people left the economy's Resources soil production does not support even 20,000 people to still stay alive So at this point you cannot be in the tourism industry telling more people from around the world to come to this island That's not gonna work.

Like you cannot be going to Dubai telling them what to build on this thing.

It's not gonna work Because you have a sinking island with 20,000 people left with the amount of resource that can maybe support 10,000 people So you have to have more relief So at this point you it is not if you really love BSV if you do You cannot be an ambassador for BSV what you need to do at this point If you're one of the people on this island still you really believe this island you believe this This island's ability to expand to be the best.

Let's say bad example, but expensive so fit for the whole world You cannot be Unfortunately, you can no longer be worried about the other people on your island.

You have to build your own business Knowing special attributes about Bitcoin that is not possible on any other island If you know that great Just build your business become a beacon of shining light Whatever be so productive that your island can now once again support 50,000 people or 100,000 people You see like we're at that point.

And so at this point if you're like, hey Jack now Hey, I've been listening to you for three years about token protocol.

I finally woke up Do you want to talk about standards now?

And it's like no I can't talk to you about standards anymore Not because I don't welcome you.

It's like you waited too long There's not enough time left to like talk about these standards now Somebody like this is what Dean has done.

Like I mean, they've done a great Question really has a great relationship, but we don't spend much time talking about it How do we incorporate like single contracts or how do you guys do run?

It's more like at this point you just need one of these businesses to completely take off and the other business I think would be very happy to like be like, you know Well switch over to your protocol But you don't have time to coordinate you need to grow either of these business or add some other business as soon as you can And we're at this kind of juncture.

We're in overtime.

I believe I thought we had three years to build BSV And we're way beyond three years So there's no time now to organize like token standards or interoperability and all that stuff You just need something to explode.

That's your best chance Wow, so what you're saying is we're kind of wrecked No, the funny thing is the people that have the best chance of unrecognized Other ones are still working on it.

But they're the ones that people think are like often noble like Like this, this is the market misconception here Yeah Yeah It's a giant psyop and there's a lot of gaslighting and bullshit that just like is completely unnecessary I mean, all you have to do is look at like who makes businesses that make money who has happy satisfied customers, right?

That's the people you look at that's the people you learn from Don't listen to anyone else Hmm Wow, this is this has definitely been very enlightening enlightening, right?

It definitely gives me That we have like accepted this a long time ago.

So like we're very chill talking about this topic.

It's not meant to be depressing You're like, oh we know about the issues, but we're still making it work.

So it just is what it is right now Some healthy co-op petition going on.

It sounds like it's like yeah, I know we're competitors But at the end of the day one of us has to make it for us both to make it so It is a bit like that.

Yeah, and it could be someone not not either the company listed.

It could be that.

Yeah Well, it could be I mean, there's still a chance that something else comes up from under the wings But I'm gonna be honest It makes me take a take a healthy look at the thing that I was looking at developing and wonder Well, maybe maybe that's not the best course of action to go in and try to do that on Right now when there's not enough resources to go around so to speak so it's I Think my analogy is pretty unique in terms of how I look at Bitcoin I look at Bitcoin as like a planet or like a ecosystem or organism, whatever and If everything was in place like in terms of the infrastructure interoperability and whatever Then you can foster all kinds of ideas independently like creative people can build their own things independently Across all kinds of different use cases and different things if the planet is not doing well, the island is not doing well, the ecosystem is not doing well, then What Bitcoin needs actually is everyone to work at the same company For a period of time because you can't independently support this ecosystem support like nine different projects at the same time So if you're thinking from a what makes Bitcoin work perspective and you're like SOS moment right now Then what you need is like everyone at Handcash now works at RelayX just for three months just for three months Build it up bigger then you go off and build your own thing It's it's like that's how you should think about it like a share a share of resources It's not necessarily that Handcash needs to merge with RelayX It's that there's not enough resources and when we when you're referring to resources you're referring to like people I don't know if there's a hundred of those in the USB They're all working on different things and unless they're super magicians like one of them doesn't really work like You can't support a hundred different projects So right now one of the best things that you could do is just all bet on Dean or something that or bet on somebody That's actually doing something to grow our way out of this issue.

But that's what I'm saying I mean, I think a better way to say it rather than like Handcash joins RelayX is like both of them work for Bitcoin now as in like Take off the their their respective caps and put on the Bitcoin cap and go.

How do we?

And this is why I caution people from taking VC money is because I knew that in a crunch some of these people would be Legally trapped from doing that yes, I have to see to be honest because There's a lot of good people that I really respect to like now in that boat and I'm glad that I Didn't didn't go down that route Right, Brittany.

There's always there's always a logic here.

There's always Deep reading behind things.

It's not it's not these perceived rumors Let like Oh Jack had a bad experience with VCs in the past or like Jack I'm just a Twitter troll.

Jack doesn't know what he's talking about.

It's just a Twitter troll Yeah, I mean I've seen everybody attack both of you guys in this space and I'm like, you know Who else is really building?

I'm gonna go to the people who are building stuff and talk to them about what they're doing because you know I mean don't get me wrong I'm willing to talk to everybody and hear everybody out and and see all the sides and all the angles But the way that you guys are laying out all of these issues.

I'm like man this Not looking good.

It is kind of kind of does look wrecked.

But you know, despite all that I'm still optimistic for the future I'm still optimistic that somehow You guys are gonna figure this out.

We're gonna figure this out and it's it's gonna move forward.

It was simple call the frog All right, well You guys wanted to say before we hop off here and wrap things up No, but I'm excited to focus on really acts and build the energy marketplace.

I really think entities are the future for BSB Given all these other issues is the only thing that we can compete on so I don't think feel the same way I'm extremely bullish on myself.

Yeah, I think if you're not bullish on yourself, then that's very sad Thank you guys.

Well, I appreciate you guys coming on and sharing your knowledge and having this nice little chat.

I thoroughly enjoyed it. But with that being said go ahead and smash up the like button hit the subscribe and we'll see you next time.

Bye, peace. Thank you for watching.

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